The idea that we are mindless automatons going through Gods motions is not what Calvinists, now or historically, have ever believed. I think this is true. Yet again! A hearty AMEN numo. Never once, have I ever thought that these folks were not saved. If you define Calvinism that way, then I am certainly not a Calvinist, but neither is my church, the PCA, nor even was Calvin himself. Look at my Perfect System! Ive seen the attitude too often in fandom, and for some reason political or theological fanboys are a lot more respectable than furry or otaku or gamer fanboys, though the underlying dynamic is similar. from what Ive seen here, youve always been a gentleman and tolerant of others who do not believe as you do. I wish we didnt even have to talk about it. There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. I went through what Calvinists themselves call the cage stage, meaning that young or new Calvinists belong in one. Shares words of wisdom & advice with you. Entropy setting in over time? Im not saying I agree with everything in the WCF, but its a really large hurdle to overcome to show that something it directly states is misrepresentative of Reformed thology/Calvinism without a mountain of evidence to support it. However, Burk made the comment that the wrath of God was at the center of the Gospel, and later on a commentor stated that to not understand PSA is to believe a different Gospel. People often pretend as though there is a dichotomy between Calvinism and Arminianism. Ive lost track of the number of times in blog comments where it has been insisted that it means that we are as bad as we can be. Jeff B. Infused? 2. Because only THEY have the right interpretive assumptions. A secondary cause is always subservient to the primary cause, which is God. When I first discovered Reformed theology, I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others.. Three of their principal concerns were believer's baptism, sectarian withdrawal from society, and religious liberty. Like one Cal would say, Cals do not believe Z, stop saying Cals believe in Z, but then five posts later, another Cal would sit there in the same thread and defend Z, say Cals were right and proper to believe in Z, and Z has lots of Scriptural support. The theology is weak. So MY goals when I talk about Calvinism here on the forum are to a) clear up misconceptions that would cause people to unnecessarily reject the theology so that they can know for real what it is they are rejecting. Questions should be addressed to the male authority in ones life., 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. Tell othersthat such thinking hurts you but do not expect them to understand. As I was saying in my post above, not only is it difficult communicating with Cals because they usually insist you just dont understand Cal!, but they cant agree with each other. There are many bite marks on my tongue. Deb and are are well aware of the criticism we are receiving from some non-Calvinists because we feature sermons by Wade Burleson. Loving hurting people in real ways (listening/caring/supporting) can help SAVE lives, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically. Packer James Montgomery Boice James White John F. MacArthur John Piper Joshua Harris Loraine Boettner Albert Mohler R.C. Takes great delight in you living your life, the ups and the downs. In fact, I've heard him preach stuff that would set Calvinists' hair (and beards) on fire. And, yes, there is much more to Calvinism than TULIP, though the two are thought of as interchangeable. A group, rightly or wrongly, is defined by the fruit that we see (often the problem with Christianity in general, right?). And requires even more general kindness and that continued diet in that warm kitchen. How dare he write such a long work! Thats why. Many Christian Protestant denominations trace their roots to John Calvin and the reformation movement. Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved.. whose beliefs have little to do with either Calvin or Arminius. I think Christendom could profit greatly from more women in the pulpit. But RC, as a neo-Cal intellectual, is, I think, trying to avoid what so many Calvinists do with regularity, and have no problem with it: concede that at the root of what they believe are ideas that simply cannot be reconciled. No. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. He isnt at cross-purposes with Himself, so the question is silly. Ah, elastigirl, I have missed you and your wonderful thoughts. William Hendriksen (18 November 1900 - 12 January 1982) was a New Testament scholar and . My husbands extended family are Calvinists, his lovely aunts family goes to a Reformed (Calvinist) church in an area considered a Bible Belt in Canada (these are very small geographic regions, unlike the US, where it spans states, it spans about a county), the church is large, evangelical and allows women in all church leadership positions. Behaviorallyyes, I would concede that Jeff S and Jeff B are NOT hyper. It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. He is NOT against us, but thank God, He is for us!! That was pretty much the last straw for me. In a faith that is centered on love, (What greater love is this?) it is hard for me to understand why abused people are so often further destroyed by that faith as presented by others. which many people hold as dear as religion and political beliefs. Understand that they think we are as illogical as we think they are illogical. Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. Of course you are. We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. I can see why many walk away . Now.as to the flavor of Christian, Ill probably have you explain, if you mention something Im not familiar with or dont understand. Ill never forget a while back in our city when two young Christian college kids were killed, execution style, in a terrible, senseless crime. Lets get this person through their crisis and love on them. What you describe is nothing like what I believe nor anyone I know believes. I get called an Arminian routinelyLOL, I dont even know anything about Arminianism. I gotta second numos motion. I dont experience this extreme attitude from you at all. The wonderful commentaries writ-ten by Adam Clarke, Charles Ellicott, and Daniel Whedon, for example, have not been published for years. YOU are never in a position to disagree or agree with their orthodoxy. Actually, Luther wrote more about election and predestination than did Calvin. @ janet: Open Discussion Page, 1 Corinthians 2:6-3:4Psalm 28:1-9Proverbs 20:24-25. Re Calvinism, part of the problem (and approach) is defining just what Calvinism is. Vous tes ici : churro cart rental bay area; circuit courts are also known as; list of non calvinist theologians . Those wishes are not uncommon. Theres sort of a flip saying that goes get 10 Calvinists in a room and youll get 30 different opinions on what Calvinism is> Okay, that saying applies in many circumstances :). I dont believe that this is the scenario that Jesus presented to his disciples. They are letting someone else handle driving. This item can do it all and do it all the better than the rest. Does that make my stance clearer? Dee blast from the past! @ Julie Anne: more of an approach to others than a nuance of their own philosophy. @ Bridget: In other words, the Calvinists want you to agree that YOU have a FINITE mind and could be wrong. Ive not tried to convince anyone that they are sinful or wrong for not believing what I believe. I err on the side of allowing too much now, just because the value of finally being able to have a voice is so huge! I dont find that these scenarios were what Jesus intended. I am much more hyper in my comments than they are. Everything. ), Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp.. CALVIN! Im sorry about the experiences youve had with Calvinists. But the rest of the bad stuff? I dont think God wanted this to happen- any more than he plans for children to be abused or any other of the litany of horrors that go on in this world. Theology needs to take the back seat when it comes to comforting the abused. @ Muff Potter: I know this all too well, Im afraid, but it goes for *anything* even art, music, theater, etc. Here is the question. Hes describing man, not God. 9Marks is another group which promotes the fact that they, the local church, get to decide who is saved and not saved. I check out on their sub and they lile John Calvin and said that his theologybwas a major necessity to make their 33(?) Actually Ive always thought of the hyper crowd in any area as the ones who want to get in your face and tell everyone how if they are not with them they are against them. Calvin as a Ferengi LOL!!! However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? CALVIN! Holds you and strokes the back of your head. What content does your faith have?. We were just glad that othersunderstood where we were coming from. He does not reject the Gospel, but he does reject predestination as presented by Calvin. FWIW, I dont consider any Arminian (see link to chart above) a non-believer. Was your family Christian? I think the biblical examples might sometimes be God working with someones sin; for example, the hardening of Pharaohs heart, and that might still be happening today in some cases, and not always involving sin, such as God giving us the words as we witness to someone.) We wouldnt be having any of these conversations if that doctrine was being labeled as hyper-Calinvism, which is what it has been called in the past. But the main thing is that Ive been a Calvinist for a long time- probably 15 years. The first two Baptist theologians were John Smyth (ca. Those of us who were vocally opposed to the leadership during the days of the Brent Detwiler Wiki Wars were quietly asked to leave, and they held open the door for me and my family with dulcet platitudes and smiling faces. The hard part about this is I dont think these folks even realize what they are doing. In response to the devastation of a hurricane: @JohnPiper: Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.Job 1:19 As for being Lutheran, I think people get this confused sometimes as if all Lutherans follow everything Luther wrote. Please, please, please, keep us posted on your son in law. It must start somewhere and with those who are willing to give up their cherished arguments for the sake of something better. But, as Ilook back, I am gratified bythe number of friends who have stayed the course through the years. I guess Im not explaining myself very well here, because all this is not to say I think theology is a bad thing. Witherington doesn't like to be put in either camp, and Lenski is Lutheran. This, of course, is totally irrelevant. I guess what Im trying to say is: No one forces any of us to comment; but once we do we are obligated to defend our ideas. But when I start debating it, it looks a lot like I follow Paul! I follow Apollos!, which the scripture CLEARLY condemns. God in nature, God in history, God in grace. I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. He doesnt get rude or nasty about Calvinists in his video, he just disagrees with their views and says why, and explains what he does believe. I can't get thereeither on the basis of the argument (I have heard it all and tried). * Okay, end of sermon. He discusses the rogue molecule that people bring up here a lot and says that if a single molecule where outside of Gods power, then it could thwart his will. That is biblical. I pointed out in the comments that the church at large didnt even HAVE a concept of PSA for the first 1,000 years, and it wasnt really popularized until the Reformers. It is a goal of this blog to extendthe dialog to include Calvinists and even find areas with which we can agree. So help me now - these labels are mind boggling - if I see on a list somewhere that so and so is a Calvinist, or an Arminian, or Pelagist (and I know I messed that word up and every time I saw it I went back to my marine biology days and thought about deep ocean life as the words are similar so I would picture the man from Atlantis and get very sidetracked in whatever idea was being posted . My bet would be that some (many?) I think that this is the reason why, in some cases (not including anyone in the present discussion), that a robust discussion is not possible. There are some big ones where I do not agree (for example, he is quite patriarchal, even though he doesnt make as big a deal about it as some of the more outspoken complementarians). For example onannihilationismhe commented that some evangelical theologians have "resurrected the old polemical labels of heresy and aberrational teaching" in order to marginalize other evangelicals holding the view (The mosaic of Christian belief, 2002). The same dynamic that caused Charles Darwin to say I am not a Darwinist and Karl Marx to say I am not a Marxist? I liked that. Do you believe that God could not stop you if he wished? In SGM, most of us were pretty demure. My Comment was Deleted This would definitely color their opinion. My bet would be that some (many?) Every puzzle piece in its perfect place, no room for any doubt And the reason I identify that way is not because I want to convert people, but because I just didnt like all the hatred spewed out at the belief system. Is some parts of the word more important than other parts? What Julie Anne is saying is also elaborated by Christa Brown in chapter 46 of her book This Little Light as well as here: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html. I have worked with you and at least a handful of other Calvinists who truly defend the abused/oppressed and I am glad to call you friend. Their approach goes like this: You heretic! We can learn some from them, but much of what they proposed brought bondage to systems, pain, and even death to some earnestly seeking God. I think a better question would be: Why should He want to stop me? Unfortunately, to some, that means I may not even be a Christian. That is how important this is and why I posted my article in the first place. which is really funny because in my experience, the Lutheran church never ever mentions either of those things. Can Calvinist and non-Calvinist Baptists work together? A person who is happy (if that word lacks depth for anyone, you could substitute hopeful, optimistic, joyful, grateful) can affect others with it, 3 generations worth (ie- someone with happiness holds a door for someone carrying a heavy load, that person is then affected positively and they in turn affect someone else with their bolstered happiness). This is also (imo) true for many, many people. I opened it in Pages, then assiduously pruned out many, many pages of endnotes and bibliography, and numerous prefaces etc that werent Calvins. Also, Jesus talked a lot about hell. HOWEVER- as is often the case, what we deal with in real life can be quite unlike what the experts say it is. Until these last five years, Ihad thought it possible for everyone to get along, even attend the same church. If a man chooses to rape a woman, does God have the power to stop him? Right thinking about what God himself teaches us about himself, us, our world, and salvation matters deeply. The seeds of justification by doctrine were sown a long time ago. Hes what theologians call a simple Being. Not simple = not complex, but meaning that there is a Unity in whatever he does.